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Post by Hecate on Dec 2, 2007 3:54:55 GMT 10
I think it was the best epi of the season . I read a lot of comments about Abby's behaviour . It was so strange to watch her like this but I understand her character . Why is she blaming Luka with all those mean , hostil & unfair words ? ? ? There is one strong feeling during the whole epi : Abby's ANGER . And it's perfectly well played . IMO ,she's really angry and ashame of herself for being an alcoholic & she's also angry for all the things she did lately . It has nothing to do with Luka . when you can't express the anger you feel in yourself , you blame the poeple around you . And most of the time , the persons you love most , ..... in this case her husband . The agressivity she used is like an auto-defence technique to conceal her addiction . She's in a deep protest stage against herself & not ready at all to get any help . The fact she's so ashamed of herself is the reason IMO she didn't go to the meetings yet . How sad for Luka , ..... just at a moment of his life ,he'd need his wife so much . He was with his dad all those last months and when his dad died , he wasn't even present . He must feel guilty & lonely . - MURIEL-
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Post by andrejia on Dec 2, 2007 4:41:48 GMT 10
Ok. Here it is. I hope my English is good enough to make my point.
I shall name this....Luka Kovac and the Addicts
I watched "Reason the Believe", the episode that set the tone for this whole arc, since we know Zabel &Co. design everything a year ahead. What strikes me the most is the way he handles these kind of cases. He makes himself clear he knows the symptoms, he knows about alcoholism from a physician's point of view. He knew how Glenda's case(the alcoholic from 12.09) was supposed to turn out due to her drunken state. And he knew how to treat the guy in 13.08.
But while at first I thought he shared perspectives with Abby and he understands very well that this is a disease, I had a chance to change my mind. I was almost stunned to see him keep everything so clinical. The patient's wife had a bruise and he referred more to that one. He actually told Abby that she was supporting domestic violence, or something like that. I don't know if I'm clear enough...he sees alcoholism as a disease but only if a certain person suffers from alcoholic induced coma or other effects. What I mean is, he doesn't recognize it as a cause. If the alcoholic does something wrong while being under influence - here, abused his wife- everything else comes on a secondary note to him and judges his actions just like he would judge a criminal with a clear mind.
He treated Glenda as an alcoholic and only as that because she has done nothing else, no endangering herself or another person. Again, he keeps things on a clinical basis. Just like he kept them with Ames while using medical jargon to describe his feelings when his hand was being smashed in the vice.
Which leads me to another thing: when and if Abby will come clean with everything she has done, how is he going to see this? It would mean a major turn point from his point of view to see the cause, not just judge and/or accept the effect.
He knows that alcoholism is a disease, just like he knew what the loss of his hand would mean. If the writers go along with this idea, it would be very interesting to see him understand that this means more than getting wasted every day and that it affects someone's actions as well as their health.It's not only a matter of ruining the liver and your body, it effects the mind as well. My point here is that he doesn't understand that...just yet.
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Jill
Lady of Luby
Posts: 119
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Post by Jill on Dec 2, 2007 4:46:48 GMT 10
Count me in too.
At this point I'm not feeling the love for Abby anymore. I know that she can redeem herself. But at this point I will never view Abby as the same character as I once did. Thanks to the writers. Abby has indeed become her worst enemy.
I know that Maura said "it's time to mess with her a little". This seems more than a little to me.
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Post by larue on Dec 2, 2007 5:32:15 GMT 10
I have too much invested in Abby to feel like she is unredeemable. I have been astounded with Maura's acting throughout this arc. She MUST be doing a good job to have people feeling the way they do about her. I have a friend who totally got turned off to ER when Luka was going through his man ho days in season 8 and 9. She refuses to watch the show, refuses to talk to me about it and belittles the entire fan fiction scenarios I have written. Another sign of a job well done...by Goran. LOL
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Post by zelda on Dec 2, 2007 8:19:18 GMT 10
I watched the epi AGAIN and am even more furious at TPTB than the first time. The previous epis with Abby's alcoholism were more DETAILED and sounded more TRUE. ( when she drove to the airport like a maniac, we could feel her ANGUISH, her PANIC...) She yelled at perfect strangers at the airport but ABBY NEVER yells at people SHE LOVES when she feels awful. She does the opposite : shutting down...being secretive... I can cope with the improbable story of NIKO wanting to follow LUKA in America, just when their father needs so much care...and the fact that he never bothered to visit Luka within the last 8 years. This is a TV SHOW, NOT A SHAKESPEARIAN PLAY. It doesn't bother me that much that Luka is staying far from his family for more than 6 months... TV show ...again..and Goran's contract. But Abby's words and behaviour in this epi have nothing to do with the character TPTB have so CAREFULLY built along the years.The huge egocentricity, the physical violence, the yellings....I just can't buy them. That's why I'm so mad at TPTB for butchering a very emotional storyline which had hooked me from the very beginning. I really wonder how they will deal with the next epi without CARICATURING Abby's character... And LARUE darling , am still amazed by MAURA's acting skills...
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Post by mrseyre on Dec 2, 2007 11:20:20 GMT 10
But we're seeing an Abby we haven't seen before; drunk Abby obviously does scream at strangers, and do all those things.
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Post by larue on Dec 2, 2007 11:37:06 GMT 10
Exactly. It takes an incredible amount of courage to totally destroy a character that has been so carefully crafted over the years.....which is why I am sitting on pins and needles waiting for next week....and two episodes from it. I am dying to see how Maura takes the next few steps with Abby. Is she tired of her enough to let them totally obliverate everything she has spent 14 years doing? Or are we peeling back layers to get to the real heart and soul they say she carries for ER?
Wouldn't it be nice of there were some sort of curious power outage so the ONLY thing available to watch at 10 pm next week was ER??? I think everyone - Grey's snobs and all - should be tunig in to this incredibly acted story arc. Heh. There is nothing like having your emotions ripped out and stomped on once in a while.especialy if it's just a television show.
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Misty
Lady of Luby
Posts: 142
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Post by Misty on Dec 2, 2007 15:36:21 GMT 10
I'm really just mad that after Abby having such a bad past and not being happy 90% of the time, and then finally being happy for what? a season? And not only that, but there was also the Ames issue last season, and she was finally happy when Luka left. I'm just mad that after all of what she's been through, she's coming undone again, and I never thought it would happen again.
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Post by mrseyre on Dec 2, 2007 22:14:12 GMT 10
And I feel the same about Luka; in doing this to herself Abby is also doing it to him. I hope Niko is still around so he has someone who gives a damn about this bereavement.
And, on a lighter note - I loved Grady's comment on meeting Luka - "I thought he'd be taller"!
Also, the supreme irony of Abby's line "Oh, and it's all about what you want, isn't it?!" Good grief, woman. Self awareness. Get some.
GV looked particularly delectible I thought; and, despite Grady's comment, taller.
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Post by Christabelle on Dec 2, 2007 22:33:48 GMT 10
But we're seeing an Abby we haven't seen before; drunk Abby obviously does scream at strangers, and do all those things. I agree, i don't think that TPTB have screwed up Abby's character. I think they are playing a her alcoholism out perfectly. Its just a side of Abby Character that we are not used to seeing. It the Abby she talks about to Ames, in the episode, 'Murmurs of the heart'. The one that 'drank a lot' and ended up in 'this apartment not knowing how she got there' or 'where she was'. We've never got to see her like this before, shouting at strangers. When we saw her relapse in seasons 8 and 9 it wasn't to the extent it is now. But remember when she 'bit' Carter! And i don't think that that she was voilent towards Luka, more drunken aggression, a combination of months of built up anger and frustration, for him leaving her alone. All this of which she took out on Pratt, the Nanny and lady at the airport. But now the person who she is the most angry with is there in front of her and no brother in sight and finally she lets it all out. Also, IMO, i don't know if anybody thinks the same but i feel Abby anger is not just directed towards Luka but also at herself for drinking again and not being able to be a stronger person? and i think this showed at the end of this episode and the last. I got the feeling she desperatly wanted to talk to Luka about everything that has been happening while he has been away, the hint about her drinking and telling him, 'we need to talk now' but because she is not of a sober mind it clouds her judgement so it doesn't come of quite how she would of liked. I think here, in her own Abby why she was asking for help! But when Luka shouted at Abby, telling her his Father had died, i sudddenly found myself transported back to season 9 when Carter told Abby his Grandmother had died and how she really wasn't there when she needed her to be. I think its the same here, she been out to 2 in the morning and he really wanted her to be there with him.
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Post by genna on Dec 2, 2007 22:35:08 GMT 10
"which in a way is understandble because he hurt her, and yes he probably did misjudge at having his brother to visit then." - too lazy to quote And how exactly did he hurt her? For not being her puppy?For actually trusting her enough to leave her with their child and with her career? Because he thought she'd be strong enough? Because he thought she didn't need him in order to stay sober? He said it himself: he wasn't vacationing...he was taking care of his dying father. And Abby was directing all of her anger towards him. She thinks this is his fault so it's ok to drink. I'm not making any excuses for him, he was wrong to stay away for that long, but he didn't hurt her. He didn't sleep with someone else, he didn't throw her brother out and he didn't try to drive the car drunk, while Joe was in the back. He was blaming him as an excuse. I guess she thinks it's ok to do this and act this way if she has a reason. Abby is all about abandonment issues and felt that way. But IMO- as I said before- I would blame him if we had just a bit with her trying at least to tell him what's going on and why he needs to come home. Instead, she went into her little world, fake-hoping that once he's back, it will all go away. She needs to wake up fast. I wasn't blaming luka and I wasn't judging him for being away. But she has been hurting- from the very 1st time she said to Neela she can tell he's comfortable there, to her telling Neela they have a life here she has obviously felt abandoned. But most of all because he has always been the one pushing, for them to get back together, them to have a child, them to move in, them to get married and when abby who is known to be negative person and after everything she has been through (maggie, drinking, hurt by carter, brother sick and more drinking!) had believed she would never be happy and she would never get a family. Remember strange bedfellows- "you promised me we'd do this together and I don't want to do this alone." I don't think the issue is the amount of time he has been away, I think it is the fact Abby was scared he didnt want to come back and then when he did he brought part of his life back with him, part she finds difficult to share. But again I'm not blaming him because Croatia is his home country, one he hasn't visited much since he has been gone, he has been reconnecting with his father in the view of his illness and with his brother, who was angry at him going to America in the 1st place, he felt things were OK at home for him ti be away. Communication, that's the issue!
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Post by mrseyre on Dec 2, 2007 23:11:54 GMT 10
The person she's most angry with has been there all along. What she has now is the person she can transfer that anger to.
The fact that she is hurting is not the same as Luka having hurt her. But in any case it's how she handles that that is the issue. She's handled it disastrously.
You know what we've never seen? One question to Luka about how his dad is doing. Not one. She is so far sunk in herself that she is incapable of thinking beyond her own feelings.
MT is brave to do this to the character, as GV was to do what he did with Luka in S9. Now, as then, the behaviour spoke to deep seated pain. What I didn't see Luka do was cynically attempt to manipulate someone he'd promised to love and stand by in order to justify himself. If anything he embraced blame a little too readily. I'm finding this far more unattractive.
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Post by starbuckadidct on Dec 2, 2007 23:42:15 GMT 10
The person she's most angry with has been there all along. What she has now is the person she can transfer that anger to. The fact that she is hurting is not the same as Luka having hurt her. But in any case it's how she handles that that is the issue. She's handled it disastrously. You know what we've never seen? One question to Luka about how his dad is doing. Not one. She is so far sunk in herself that she is incapable of thinking beyond her own feelings. MT is brave to do this to the character, as GV was to do what he did with Luka in S9. Now, as then, the behaviour spoke to deep seated pain. What I didn't see Luka do was cynically attempt to manipulate someone he'd promised to love and stand by in order to justify himself. If anything he embraced blame a little too readily. I'm finding this far more unattractive. I would have to dissagree there. She is a wife, she has every right to ask where he has been, what he has been doing. The argument in this episode has nothing to do with her mistakes, but the fact that he hurt her, by leaving, by not calling and saying "I want you here with me" She lacked that line and she has every right to. All he had to do was say that. Instead he sounded doing well alone without her. No wife likes to hear that her husband is better off without her and their child. I think both Abby and Luka are beeing played out as complete irresponsible husband/wife and parents.
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Post by zelda on Dec 2, 2007 23:56:09 GMT 10
Quoting mrseyre:
Also, the supreme irony of Abby's line "Oh, and it's all about what you want, isn't it?!" Good grief, woman. Self awareness. Get some.
That's why I was talking about her HUGE EGOCENTRICITY.
But I'm really intrigued and looking forward to watching 300 PATIENTS...more than I have ever been with ER within the last 2 years.
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Post by mrseyre on Dec 3, 2007 0:02:56 GMT 10
The person she's most angry with has been there all along. What she has now is the person she can transfer that anger to. The fact that she is hurting is not the same as Luka having hurt her. But in any case it's how she handles that that is the issue. She's handled it disastrously. You know what we've never seen? One question to Luka about how his dad is doing. Not one. She is so far sunk in herself that she is incapable of thinking beyond her own feelings. MT is brave to do this to the character, as GV was to do what he did with Luka in S9. Now, as then, the behaviour spoke to deep seated pain. What I didn't see Luka do was cynically attempt to manipulate someone he'd promised to love and stand by in order to justify himself. If anything he embraced blame a little too readily. I'm finding this far more unattractive. I would have to dissagree there. She is a wife, she has every right to ask where he has been, what he has been doing. The argument in this episode has nothing to do with her mistakes, but the fact that he hurt her, by leaving, by not calling and saying "I want you here with me" She lacked that line and she has every right to. All he had to do was say that. Instead he sounded doing well alone without her. No wife likes to hear that her husband is better off without her and their child. I think both Abby and Luka are beeing played out as complete irresponsible husband/wife and parents. What? She knew where he's been and what he'd been doing. Why would she assume he was doing anything other than he said he was? And all we have is Abby's not very reliable interpretation of the fact that he was off having fun, a stance it looks increasinlyt to me she has talked herself into. And she had passports for her and Joe - why not go to him? Why is it all down to Luka? He is a husband, he presumably has every right to hear from her that she wishes she could get over there, but we didn't hear that either. Blaming him for not saying something in a conversation which was never written is, well, odd. It seems to me that you have completely missed the point of her behaviour. She was blaming Luka so she didn't have to blame herself. Whatever Luka did or didn't do, he didn't open that bottle of wine, he didn't lie to her sponsor, he didn;t sleep with a colleague, he didn't hide the vodka in the freezer, he didn't suggest she hide out at Neela's so she could drink, and he didn't tell out and out lies to her. Luka is irresponsible for leaving his son to be cared for by a woman he trusts, the child's mother? Well OK, if you say so.
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